User talk:Mnenyver/Klaus's Guilt
applause! Very nicely thought through and extremely plausible. I hope we'll get to see SOMEthing which would address this concept one way or another before we all file for retirement benefits. -- Corgi 10:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Comments This is an interesting subject. My understanding of the "naughty flashback", though, was that while Klaus and Lucrezia were having an affair discreetly, the news of Lucrezia marrying Bill came as a shock and a surprise to Klaus at least partly because they hadn't even been an "item" before to his knowledge. So I hadn't considered the question of Klaus feeling guilt over betraying William Heterodyne in that manner. His reaction at seeing Punch and Judy again makes his motives seem uncomplicated, and Carson von Mekkan's flashback adds some detail. He still thinks of the Heterodyne Boys as his friends, but he chafed under their relative lack of a "dark side". When he came back from his exile, finding Europe in chaos, he was angry. Angry at the Heterodyne Boys because they failed, for all their moral superiority - and determined to show that, given a free hand, he could succeed where they failed. On some level, he might blame himself for not being there when whatever happened did happen, but he rightly pushes that feeling out of the way as irrational. His tragic flaw is that he doesn't know that he should scale back the iron fist approach once his power is secure and peace is established, to avoid becoming, in future, a worse menace than what he has overcome... and his misjudgement of Agatha, and, for that matter, Gil, who represent the path the future should take. This flaw largely comes from the very nature of the Spark. Complicated motivations involving guilt may explain why his intentions are good, and why he became a partner of the Heterodyne Boys in the first place. But I think at this point that it's the Spark, and not guilt in any form, that accounts for his intense and driven nature. It certainly is true in literature that an intense and driven character often is driven by guilt, and so I don't deny the possibility of future revelations in the story adding such an element to Klaus' character. But right now I don't think there is much of a basis to work from in that direction. --Quadibloc 12:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC) :I'll try to address each point in order -- :The naughty flashback: The way Klaus declares, "Bill is my friend!" is absolutely outrage. We also know that in the old Heterodyne Boys stories, Bill and Lucrezia were always the romantic rivals. She's the villain's beautiful daughter, remember? It's always Bill and Lucrezia, and then Barry and The High Priestess. It's one of the basic premises of those pantos. So the fact that they had romantic interest in one another was common knowledge. Though we don't know the exact tenor of their relationship before they were married, I think it's safe to assume there was at least chemistry going on. And not just in beakers. Oh yes, Klaus knew that Bill had interest in Lucrezia. :Klaus's reaction to Punch and Judy: He's definitely angry. As you pointed out, Klaus thought these were his friends. And yet he finds they've been hiding from him all along, which means none of them trusted him. I don't know about you, but if I found out my best friends and adventuring companions for 20-odd years were not the boon companions I thought they were, I'd be hurt. I'd cry. But very generally speaking, the first reaction most men have at being hurt is not to cry. They get angry. :Methods: He certainly has a dark streak, but it's not malicious. He thought Bill and Barry were foolish to trust people. He's at least partly right there -- there was a lot more going on than they knew. I don't think Bill and Barry were quite as naive as he paints them, though. But the comic is very clear that Klaus stepped in because he had to. The way he saw it, he had no other option. And, lacking the diplomatic skills and the trusting nature of Bill and Barry, he did it the only way he knew how -- he put his foot down. With a great big steel-toed boot. :His spark is not driving his actions. If it were, he would find a way, any way, to be off in his lab actually using it, doing what he really loves to do instead of ordering troops around. His spark isn't political. If it was, he'd be better at it. While he's a very good war commander, he doesn't enjoy it. No, if that were the nature of his spark, he'd be Emperor Klaus, very happy to be tromping his way across Europa. :I think the fact that he's a spark, and so has obligations that ordinary people don't have, was impressed upon him from a very early age. It's easy to imagine his parents as incredibly strict. :Looking forward to responses! --m 17:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC) ::Basically, your section "The Lost Years" does come close to a theory I could accept. But while Klaus may feel some guilt of that type, I would think of it as a subconscious thing, an irritant that just makes him angrier at the Heterodyne Boys. His basic personality isn't guilt-driven, but ego-driven. Something did save him from being a terrible villain, but what it was, and whether it worked through guilt or through pride, is not yet known. ::The tags put on Klaus and Gil in the "The Works" card game make me think that, just as the death of DuMedd was avoided, the story may have changed from Kaja's original outline in the direction of making Klaus more sympathetic. Of course, the wasp with which he is infected may make it easy enough to explain any future abrupt turns needed. --Quadibloc 01:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC) ::: Of course. We know Gil was supposed to be evil. The original version of Klaus (Ujabeck) was meant to be much more harsh. I think even after the comic started, it's possible he was softened a touch. Even in Issue 1, though, Klaus and Gil were more or less in their final forms, so it can't have been that big of a change. --m 01:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC) : His tragic flaw is that he doesn't know that he should scale back the iron fist approach once his power is secure and peace is established... Bzuh? Power is not secure, and the peace is hanging on by its metaphorical fingernails. He knows perfectly well that right now, the empire is a cult of personality - his. It's hardly a flaw to realise that not only is it not stable enough to survive him yet, but that playing the Bad Guy is necessary to give people a reason to look forward to Gil. Look how disturbed everything is just because he's in hospital - conspiracies coming out of the woodwork, attemped assassinations to finish the job, cats panicking. That's not 'secure power'. That's 'Don't make me come over there'. -- Corgi 21:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC) :: We know from the Blueprints that his parents were a minor house who used their power for the good of their people. I don't know about strict but it's easy to imagine a basic noblesse oblige and decency being passed on, just as it has to Gil. :: Your theory is possible, but not one I'd thought of. I hadn't seen him as guilty or denying himself pleasures in some flagellating or ascetic fashion, but just doing what had to be done. Lucrezia betrayed him, he escaped Skifander saving Gil from putative assassins, Europa's a mess, his home destroyed, his parents dead (if they weren't already), his friends missing... that's enough for a bad mood right there. Oh, and he has a wife he hasn't been able to see. I figure the surface works: he's doing what has to be done, because he's in the position to do it, and do it right. Unlike most conquerors, he even seems to be correct, not self-serving. And he's annoyed at everyone for making him have to do it. --mindstalk 19:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC) ::: That's a good point about him not being self-flagellating. I think I should edit the article to reflect that. I don't see him as actively punishing himself, but instead sort of stoic about accepting his duties. Absence of luxuries rather than denial of pleasure. --m 01:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC) Brava Mnenyver- and these comments are good. I think we can all agree that Klaus is driven, even if debating details. 19:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)Cerrberus